ericameeran
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@jesuslovesyou69 Ahhh I just noticed that you are an attorney and a CPA! That makes sense! Love attorneys. The most logical individual to have a conversation with.
PPP & PUA: **8 weeks worth** not 8 weeks of payments. Sole Props
- Thread starter iamasinkingship
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- business ppp small business
jesuslovesyou69
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@ericameeran Well, some of us ;-)
ericameeran
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@jesuslovesyou69 Haha by reading your comments, I can tell that you are! And a fun person to debate with! I have many attorneys in my circle and always get along with them very well. I am a CPA and an enrolled agent.
iamasinkingship
New member
@jesuslovesyou69 Are you reading me my Miranda rights lol
How would it be evading? Someone would claim the total amount but in one week not multiple.
There’s simply no law about this, let alone clear guidance which would not implicate fraud in any sense.
Your misconception is charming, and your assumption that I myself am doing this is certainly flattering. If you have to know, I am not. But it is a hell of a good debate
How would it be evading? Someone would claim the total amount but in one week not multiple.
There’s simply no law about this, let alone clear guidance which would not implicate fraud in any sense.
Your misconception is charming, and your assumption that I myself am doing this is certainly flattering. If you have to know, I am not. But it is a hell of a good debate
jesuslovesyou69
New member
@iamasinkingship Both actually 
but I don’t claim to be an unemployment law expert. Prosecution of fraud, however, I can speak to.
The problem is that the virtually unfettered discretion of administrators to decide what the law is. So if a state official decides that taking both PPP and unemployment (even in separate weeks) constitutes obtaining a state unemployment benefit by deception (about as vague of standard as I can imagine) then the business owner ends up getting charged with a crime, or at the very least a civil penalty plus forfeiture if the ‘ill-gotten’ gains Can the owner beat that charge? I would say there’s a decent chance given the constitutional implications. But to do so, the business owner will have to hire a litigator that specializes in constitutional law and fight a likely multi-year court battle. And that ain’t cheap. And the government knows it.
In short, I think you are probably legally correct. But I wouldn’t want to be the business that tried it. And I sure wouldn’t want to leave a paper trail (and I understand you were asking theoretically, but others have asked questions on this sub lately that could implicate them) for the government to point to as evidence of intent.
but I don’t claim to be an unemployment law expert. Prosecution of fraud, however, I can speak to. The problem is that the virtually unfettered discretion of administrators to decide what the law is. So if a state official decides that taking both PPP and unemployment (even in separate weeks) constitutes obtaining a state unemployment benefit by deception (about as vague of standard as I can imagine) then the business owner ends up getting charged with a crime, or at the very least a civil penalty plus forfeiture if the ‘ill-gotten’ gains Can the owner beat that charge? I would say there’s a decent chance given the constitutional implications. But to do so, the business owner will have to hire a litigator that specializes in constitutional law and fight a likely multi-year court battle. And that ain’t cheap. And the government knows it.
In short, I think you are probably legally correct. But I wouldn’t want to be the business that tried it. And I sure wouldn’t want to leave a paper trail (and I understand you were asking theoretically, but others have asked questions on this sub lately that could implicate them) for the government to point to as evidence of intent.
iamasinkingship
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@jesuslovesyou69 Now that was compelling. Thank you for your input
jesuslovesyou69
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@iamasinkingship I’m a bit more awake than I was last night. Right in the middle of drafting an appellate brief on the Commerce Claus and Congress’s ability to regulate email as a channel or instrumentality of interstate commerce so I only have so many free brain cells
iamasinkingship
New member
@jesuslovesyou69 Glad you stopped by. It’s refreshing to have someone who is actually familiar with the legality of this issue. I think now people can draw their own conclusions on how to move forward.
If your hiring I know the perfect candidate; /@liztaylor972 (inside joke)
If your hiring I know the perfect candidate; /@liztaylor972 (inside joke)
jesuslovesyou69
New member
@iamasinkingship I would obviously prefer to be able to give a definitive legal answer – but I know better
But I agree with my father who said that we will know a lot more about the limitations on administrative law (or the lack thereof) after this crisis then we have in half a century.
But I agree with my father who said that we will know a lot more about the limitations on administrative law (or the lack thereof) after this crisis then we have in half a century.
iamasinkingship
New member
@jesuslovesyou69 It’s certainly testing the bounds of the economy. Your fathers a wise man, and it’s certainly going to be nightmare for many.
jesuslovesyou69
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@iamasinkingship The old man has the advantage of sitting on his deck on the side of the mountain that he owns sipping whiskey whilst delivering sage advice – but I have to get down in the damn trenches to get the job done ;-)
ericameeran
New member
@iamasinkingship Haha that was a very pleasant debate. Glad someone who can use logic and facts and understands the legal side stoppped by.
So annoying when people just keep pushing their opinions, assumptions and speculations as facts.
So annoying when people just keep pushing their opinions, assumptions and speculations as facts.
@jesuslovesyou69 Archangel12504 .. i asked this in another post but i would like your opinion if you have the time. what do you think about using PPP to replaces decrease in income even while on unemployment. sparing you a bunch of details on how it came to this, after being denied unmplmnt. i now get a little bit over $600/week because of reduced side gig... but i'm still underpaid by 50%. my loss is in my 1099 business.
trying to get by with 50% income loss and trying to keep up with fees and expenses that never stopped that include business related but not covered by the ppp guidelines, and to add cherry on top, my landlord just raised rent by a few hundred dollars. i don't want to be in even more trouble if i take this money. returning it is one thing.. but then the fines, prison threats etc from unemployment office .. so much anxiety. our ability to create income stopped, but the rest of the world including the bills/expenses did not stop. how does that work?
jesuslovesyou69
New member
@sammy707 If the PPP proceeds distributed for self employed income replacement follow the rules for the PPP and are reported as income to the state for unemployment purposes I don’t see an issue an it’s face, but the vagaries and complications of both the PPP and state unemployment programs make it impossible to answer that question with any kind of certainty on a broad basis. The problem is that I would expect the state to reduce unemployment for any PPP proceeds distributed.
@jesuslovesyou69 thank you. i'm really leaning toward entering the true dates that i am trying to replace my income for when i was not paid unemployment. they are outside the 8 week period they are talking about. if they don't approve it, i'll just return it. if they approve it, and unemployment says something, i will have official documentation that clearly covers dates i was never paid by the state. so i would rather just try to do that. i've noticed that things that i think or read where law interpretation is involved, when it comes down to it, when you try, for one reason or another the results are not always as expected.. so you never know i guess until you try. what's the worst that can happen? them denying me and me returning the money. i don't want debt on top of this mess.
people that need help aren't really being helped. relatives and friends are going thru similar dilemmas. while, like the other poster said, the regular 9-5er is home free. not that they don't deserve it, but i feel like entrepreneurs, we deserve it too. we put our necks out in the world and take the risk of leaving the cushy paycheck behind to grind and hustle to make our dreams come true. we were told help is coming. yet, it's barely enough to cover all the bills that did NOT stop. i don't know why they don't see all these holes in these programs. i wonder if they would see it differently and have a sense of urgency if their incomes were slashed in half or even more.. i wonder how they'd fair.
the pandemic has dehumanized me. i feel more like a commodity than a human being. no one gives a rat's a**. we're all a bunch of numbers.
people that need help aren't really being helped. relatives and friends are going thru similar dilemmas. while, like the other poster said, the regular 9-5er is home free. not that they don't deserve it, but i feel like entrepreneurs, we deserve it too. we put our necks out in the world and take the risk of leaving the cushy paycheck behind to grind and hustle to make our dreams come true. we were told help is coming. yet, it's barely enough to cover all the bills that did NOT stop. i don't know why they don't see all these holes in these programs. i wonder if they would see it differently and have a sense of urgency if their incomes were slashed in half or even more.. i wonder how they'd fair.
the pandemic has dehumanized me. i feel more like a commodity than a human being. no one gives a rat's a**. we're all a bunch of numbers.
jesuslovesyou69
New member
@iamasinkingship If I can just convince my boss to hold my paychecks and pay my annual salary in a single week, I can collect unemployment for the other 51 weeks! No chance that wouldn’t turn out well for me!